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Plagiarism or just good business?
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bassnyerface
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject: Plagiarism or just good business? Reply with quote

Mmmm, and I thought it was "She had a sense of you" all this time. I guess I need to read CD boxes.
Well, fellas, after my return from my mini tour on the east coast with Eddie and friends, I'm back next door working again on that vacant apt listening to your CD where it's been since I first heard it. I really love it. I would like to record Sense of Humor with a female vocalist I know here.
BTW, in the pop music world, it's not plagiarism, it's called good business. The pop music thing is a copy job. The Beatles said they would decide who they were going to be on each new song, "Let's be Chuck Berry on this one and Fleetwood Mac on that one, etc." But it still sounded like Beatles because of their limitations. Funny how they copied whoever had a #1 hit and everyone else copied the Beatles.
Another example: ALL f u n k bands copied James Brown. He had the formula they all copied.
Even Charlie Parker did it. That's why there are so many Parker tunes written over the chord changes to "I Got Rythm," and the 12 bar blues is the most prevalent song form in American music without a close second. Dig this: Parker's "Donna Lee" was written over the changes to "Back Home Again in Indiana." Yup, Indiana is an important tune in jazz, and I have gotten much respect and notoriety for knowing the correct changes thanks to my days as a kid in marching band. New York hep cats are still writing tunes over what they call "Indiana changes." Joe Lovano got a Grammy for it. I’m an expert on Indiana, and why shouldn’t I be? Dudes who live in Ipanema, Brazil happen to be able to play the heck out of Girl From Ipanema. I was shocked upon realizing “Back Home Again in Indiana” gave me cache in the bebop world.
Enuff O'That.
Boys, go ahead and copy; that's the name of the game. Pick a #1 tune and rewrite it (rewrite means new lyrics and melody). Trying to be original will stifle your originality. Your originality will spring from your limitations. Why borrow (play covers) when you can steal (rewrite).
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anyhorizon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I've read some stuff in my time but that's gotta be close to the biggest load of... oh, sorry, you guys know each other. I guess Slim or Greg will drop in and quietly guide me thru the hidden meaning when they have a spare moment. I haven't played it backwards yet but I'll give it a go in the morning.

The Beatles... saying "let's be Fleetwood Mac"!! I'm dyin' here.

Nighty, night.

Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's what Lennon said, really. That's the way they operated. They would see what was hitting #1 then do a song like that. If Fleetwood Mac had a hit, Lennon or McCartney would say let's do one like that. I suspect that Mark and Greg operated like this somewhat for these CD's. I thought maybe people would think it a load when I wrote Beatles had limitations. If you think they didn't, then we're really kicking a dead horse.

Expect that my writing will be full of loads; just take what you need and leave the rest. (I was wrong once when I'd thought I'd made a mistake.) I can be full of caca; that's what I think forums are good for, straighten my stupid self out.

Ya' wanna write hits? See what's hitting and rewrite it. I'm just telling you what THEY do. And THEY've been doing it for years and years. Pop music is a copy job. Music press is polite when they cite "influences." All ZZ Top did was copy T Bone Walker. They proudly admitted this, that they were a tribute to him. And they probably made more money than him because they were white.

If we take ourselve too seriously as "artists" that's a block. And if you like pop music like I do, you'll still want to play it. We don't choose the music business; the music business chooses us. We just play because we have nothing better to do (Slim). But when we do something well and it's needed, we get calls whether we like doing that particular thing or not. That's the ONLY reason I play hard bop and jazz: I can, and they call me. But I'd be better off in Christine Aguilara's (spale?) band.

I love the work Mark and Greg did on these CD's. There is some seriously heavy stuff, like Sense of Humor, then there's a lot of fun like Tennesee Girls, Super Beatle, Beach Baby (not sure of the exact titles 'cause I haven't read the box). Sense of Humor is a masterpiece. Makes my eyes water. That's strong stuff there.

When can I audition for the bass chair?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imitation is part of music as a whole, limiting that statement to pop or any genre is a huge misnomer I think. So often I hear people say that jazz is the only fresh music, the only stuff that isn't being regurgitated. Of course improv adds a whole layer to things that other genres don't utilize, but jazz is just as guilty of it as pop is as far as I'm concerned. Even the unique of the unique only found their way by building on the techniques of those before.

Thelonious inspired George Russell to make his way, who eventually through dealings with Miles would pen his Lydian Chromatic Concept which reverberated back through Bill Evans and Miles and their whole gang spurring the modal style, which would inspire Chick and Herbie and the shock wave continues today. Not using the tools and sounds of others would quite rapidly lead to a creative drought. For better or worse that's how it is, the challenge (from a non-commercial standpoint) is to try, every time you play, to see if you can raise the bar a little.

All that said, I think regardless of it all Mark and Greg both play for themselves first and foremost, which is the slow but sure way to success.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm at work, can't read all this yet...if anyone said it not possible to make a form of music without influence, I think I agree. Although I suppose we could, as humans, make involuntary sounds that almost completely bypass our brains (and hence our influences), and hopefully avoid modulating it in any way, and someone might perceive the sound of me farting or falling down the stairs, dig it and call it music. Just thinking out loud, must go now. Hi Dave and Fugu!
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anyhorizon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My amusement with the Fleetwood Mac comment really lay in the timing of the two bands. Seems to me FM were '70s and they were the ones influenced by The Fabs.

I have seen that remark about "Let's be this" before but believe it was from very early on in their onslaught. There came a point when their influences became a wash of stuff and there was no conscious effort to be anyone other than themselves, albeit culled from the melting pot that held all the previous ingredients. Even so, I don't remember anything before it that exhibited the bridge going to the V minor as it did in "I wanna hold your hand" and that was pretty early. Beautiful.

I have trouble writing I IV V songs. When I hear some of the good ones by Berry, Penniman and Pomus/Shumann, I go, geez that sounds easy but it ain't. I inevitably get bored trying to maintain the structure without reaching for another color.

I prefer the "let the influences just wash over me approach" in the process of writing but I'm a nobody and at this stage, never will be anything more so clearly, I've made a mistake. I can't abide the notion, though, of seeing a hit and deciding to write it again.

That's like a painter going, "I'm gonna paint 'A Starry Night' again but I'll change the position of the stars. It's bound to be a hit".

Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this. You guys are really smart. I think FM was a blues band in the sixties; the Stevie Nicks, etc concoction came later.

Still, I'm not talking merely influences. I'm talking about the art of out and out theft, grand larceny, stealing. Take a song, change the melody and lyrics a little, and you did it. Let's not be ashamed.

I don't think jazz is fresh at all. FZ: "Jazz is not dead; it just smells funny." I think hip hop is fresh. I ain't no jazz snob. I wanna rock. Really, I do. Jazz is really good for people who are too in love with themselves and think they're really hip for digging 50 year old plus tunes. Our band is a little different. Rather than burying our noses in intricately arranged charts, we fly without a net by the seat of our pants. Our rythm section is improvisational. We're like Grateful Dead with PhD's.

Can some pop meister give me a gig?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think experimental stuff can be original. Sometimes there's a new instrument that makes something possible that you never imagined. "Frankenstein" blew me away. Statistically, most experiments fail, but some alter the landscape. Jeff Beck opens new horizons regularly through his interpretation of songs, and the fact that he gets stuff out of a guitar NOBODY else can. Is that original? You bet, but the song isn't. Of course Hendrix did it too. That was pretty original. It took me years to figure out he was a blues man. Frankly, this discussion could never end. I just did a live tracking of my new band, and that was fresh and original feeling to me. Playing, and then having to live with it with three other guys feeling the same way was quite new.

I know the early Beatles were certainly thinking Smokey Robinson, Elvis and Little Richard, but only because they said so later. If you'd have told me that Robert Johnson was the influence for Cream I'd have thought you were nuts. If I told you my vocal influence for some tune was Pavarotti, you'd think I was nuts. Which brings me to my next thought.

I can be thinking "I want a groovin' bass line like on Motown song "X", but what I'm playing is not Motown. Motown is my inspiration, but the situation is completely different. Maybe I want guitar phrasing like Larry Carlton, but I can't play like him, but my attempt to mimic him turns out to be original??

Concerning theft, bands steal from themselves. Somebody posted about Nickleback, and put one hit song on the right channel, and another hit song on the left channel. They lined up PERFECTLY for tempo, breaks, bridges, solos and fades. Unbelievable. The thread called it recycling. I think the industry expects it and demands it. The Taxi song requests all define what they want in terms of what's already popular.

Dave, I would like to try what you're talking about sometime just for grins and see what happens.

Edgar Winter was big on recycling. One of the guitar solos in Frankenstein apears note for note on an earlier album. I heard a blues horn arrangement he did on a Johnny Winter album that was lifted note for note from one of his albums.

So much of this depends on your audience, because not very much is new, but it sure can be new to them. The real trick seems to be to be the first guy to dredge up something old that everyone sees as new. Alice Cooper said his entire stage show was vaudeville, and that Mae West and Grouch Marx watched him once and knew exactly what he was doing.

The art of originality is concealing your sources.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now we're getting somewhere: the art of originality is that you have to be yourself because you can't prevent it.

Go ahead, steal a song; it's still gonna be you. You'll just have more 'original' material, lots more. The pride of creation won't be a block.

I think maybe I should try what I'm talking about. I've always been scared to.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if any of you have heard any of Booby Bare Jr.'s album "Young Criminals' Starvation League", but the album has a protest song called "Dig Down" that I think has some fairly relevant lyrics to this thread. Here are a few:

Quote:
"This letter is addressed to Mr. Pete Townsend / Hey brother, I write you to say thanks for nothin’ / Your generation used up all the feelings / And if we rock, it looks like we’re ripping you off” / “Chuck Berry, Chuck Berry, you wrote the only original song / Some white boys stole it; we all sing along / Chuck Berry sing to us one more time / Before Fred Bisquit freezes everybody’s mind."


Overall, I'd personally have to agree with Greg's position of "originality is [the art of] concealing your sources". However, I see some originality in music these days as the younger generation begins to blend traditional genres of music creating their own more original styles. For instance, the current alternative country movement is now blending 70's/80's punk rock styles with old school classic country styles. It's a very interesting mixture that I believe constitutes some level of originality for those that are in the midst of creating it.

Wink The One Eyed Sysop
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, where are you? We need you here! Come on, boy, where is you be?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to Bassmaniacon MC, InYourHorizon, SushiChasm, Cyclop, Fugu_nyerface, and anyone I missed?

Slim been bizzy, dizzy, kinda illin’ but getting better. Bass, thank you for returning in force. I LOVE this kind of stuff. It can become a way to put off actually making music, but usually it’s very much my kind of fun. Thanks to our other inhabitants for their extremely scrumptious responses.

[Warning: This turned into an extremely long-winded confession/manifesto – sorry readers! Slim is in a race with the Unibomber to write the single longest forum post in internet history. –Ed.]

Sysop, I LOVE the Bobby Bare Jr. lyric, especially that first line. I’ve struggledwith those thoughts. Like Bass said, hip hop is fresh; classic rock and roll is so dead it’s irritating, unless you do something surprising within that context.

Hip hop music is pretty great but they keep talking over it. I’ve always hated people who talked while others were listening to music. How rude and selfish. Pipe down, you are not more interesting than this music. You and your friend talk about how great you are in another room so I can hear this.

I think I detect Bass embracing a cynical copying approach to writing poppish music. Not sure the cynicism is necessary if you have some kind of gift and you LOVE things that you’ve heard, past and/or present. You’ll imitate w/o really trying, and pull influences from everywhere, and they’ll be sounds you love, done in a sweaty lovemaking work session. The result will be more emotionally compelling than writing a re-hash from a cynical (or just an unemotional) standpoint. Doesn’t guarantee a hit, especially nowadays, but it might be stronger and full of life, if that’s important. Is it? I gotta get back to that question.

Like Pete I’m pretty sure that Popes John/Paul continued writing under the inspiration of the kinds of music they loved, but they lost the cynical aspect at least by Revolver, when they no longer felt much need to “write a swimming pool.” (Source: Greg Bell, 2007 email. –Ed.] They continued copying bits here, there & everywhere out of love rather than business concerns and competition, excepting aesthetic competition with the Beach Boys “Pet Sounds.” And even in the early days they were very happy with their choice of Ringo because they loved the behind-the-beat groove of Bruce Channel’s “Hey Baby” and Ringo had that feel down. They refused, under much duress, to record a sure-fire hit (“How Do You Do It”) because they hated it and wanted to write their own, and that pressure made them squeeze out “Please Please Me,” the first Beatles song England actually gave a hang about. So they always had genuine standards, I guess.

Side note: People tend to see the Beatles as sophisticated London-y aesthetes but they were really just middlebrow dork-punks with chips on their shoulders, and they were gddmd if they were going to fail. I’ve had to admit to myself that 43% of my adoration for their music is pure, intense nostalgia – they’re kind of off the writing pedestal for me – I actually dare to think there are better writers and songs (not I, me or mine, however!). Well anyway, I think they had a helpful balance going in the early days between ambition, cynicism and love.

So I’ll accept that the most financially successful pop writers (a current example being the Matrix, who are a trio that write hits for Avril Laveeeene and a bunch of others) often maintain that advantageous balance between cynicism, psychology and sounds that they personally love. It’s probably more cynical in Nashville. I’ve always imagined that kind of songwriting would be an enjoyable job, even if it only yielded $50k a year. Probably not hugely satisfying, but better than a dead-end graphics job Smile And of course it would be hard to hate the job if it was earning huuuge sums.

But in today’s appallingly glutted and devolving/dissolving music scene no amount of cynicism, ambition, plotting, planning, and copying will put two middle-aged men anywhere near the charts. Unless we go completely behind the scenes and brilliantly “cast” songs for every hot performer we can think of, AND have financial angels and the exact, mad-luck connections to put us in a position to sell songs at that level.

I also doubt we will make a comfortable living as writer-performers in an indie arena where not only Mark and Greg can suddenly make a record but my completely-unable-to-carry-a-tune-or-rhythm wife [who IS a magnificently talented artist and writer. –Ed.] can make a record with Garageband clips. [I’m actually very interested as to what kind of music she would come up with. Hmmm. –Ed.] We don’t have a chance without large monies poured into marketing, distribution and the like, and large energies poured into business matters while also pouring large energies into the music itself.

“Trying to be original will stifle your originality.” That’s a clever phrase but too black-and-white, and I don’t think it’s accurate. I’ve been consciously (and naively) trying to be original ever since I started trying to write songs, but get this -- the result is a small body of work that is heavily and obviously influenced, song-by-song Smile, by all the musix I love. By “original” I mean I try to write changes and lyrics that I can’t remember hearing in another pop song (the song’s style can be derivative, I like that). Of course I fail but I always try, ‘cuz I want to. Since I’m completely lacking in any formal training, hunt-and-peck is my music-writing method and it’s a painstaking but usually enjoyable method…I start with a spark of melody and lyric in my head and then slowly extrude a song from that by hunt n’ peck. My ignorance means the whole process -- from chords to arrangement to drumming to vocal comping -- is actually fairly spontaneous, accident-prone and full of discovery.

My method is solitary and slow, and might be sped-up by collaborating with others, but I’m a solitary creator due to starting out very young as a would-be artist under the influence of artist parents. Sitting on the floor drawing, drawing, reading, drawing. I’m still most excited when I’m working and thinking alone. I had a terrible collaboration experience in Atlanta because I was too full of ideas and myself to collaborate, and I don’t know if I can do any better now.

Of course, there ARE no new chord changes, especially in pop. There may be a few more unusual (as opposed to totally unique) ways left to combine various sets of changes, but we’re running short of them like phone numbers. Language allows lyrics to still be kind of unique, so far. Unfortunately this is no longer true for band names. Smile

“…bands steal from themselves. Somebody posted about Nickleback…” I read that The Four Tops “Same Old Song” was the writers recycling “Sugar Pie Honey Bunch” to make another hit. For the record both of those songs have always sickened me while I like the Four Tops’ songs otherwise. I think I sense the nothingness behind the songs. Anyway, if cynical songwriting is the 4rd circle of hell, recycling your own songs is surely the 6th.

“I can be thinking "I want a groovin' bass line like on Motown song "X", but what I'm playing is not Motown.” That’s what I do all the time. I’m heavily under the spell of an Al Green song and I write “Sense Of Humor.” No need to rip Willie Mitchell, just be loving music.

“Mark and Greg both play for themselves first and foremost , which is the slow but sure way to success.” Well, I certainly do what I want to do. In Greg’s case, he compromises for me every time we work together, and I hate doing that to him. I take the word “success” here to mean “creative satisfaction.” Although the slow road to success has worked, Bonnie Raitt for example.

“The art of originality is concealing your sources.” You mean conceal the stolen lyric, theme or part? OK. But there's no need to conceal style/sound influences, tho – that’s the kind of ripping off that -- in pop music anyway – seem totally part of the art. “Lies” by the Knickerbockers is a pretty darned entertaining Beatles rip. Oops, entertainment, the "E" word! Nothing wrong with the entertainment of others occurring whilst we're in the process of doing something we love. In fact, that's ideal.

“If we take ourselves too seriously as "artists" that's a block.” I’d replace the word “artist” with creator, songwriter, composer…anything other than the loaded word “artist,” since it leads to statements like the above, which I pretty much disagree with. I take pretty seriously the music I do, and that’s a block to being a prolific writer of potential hits, sure. But I’m never going to approach the work any less than 100% seriously, and that has never blocked the trickle, or weak stream, of songs I'm proud of.

I already have a day job as an art director. I love design but I don’t dare take it seriously because the compromises are perpetual and soul-sucking – and I don’t mean “artistic” compromises, I mean breathtakingly foolish decisions by clients to dilute the effectiveness a good piece of (expensive!) marketing because their wife doesn’t like something about it. I’m dead tired of saying “oh well” and hitting my work with a dummy-hammer.

IOW I don't seriously care about making money at music.

“…the challenge (from a non-commercial standpoint) is to try, every time you play, to see if you can raise the bar a little.” There you go! Raise the bar for yourself and maybe even pop music in general. Maybe even jazz. Maybe even classical. Aim high! Smile

I come from a line of “failed” artists who structured their non-job lives around creating for the love of creating and never made a living at it. So this is totally normal to me. Ironic that so-called popular music is the chosen medium for my most personal creative efforts, but there are worse lives to be led, and worse lives being led, so I’m uncommonly lucky to be where I am and have such good people to lullabye with my bull and/or my songs.

If there really is some kind of karmic ether field that permeates, binds and affects us all, then I am cirtin the world benefits from creative effort made in a state of love, even if fewer than 100 people in the world ever perceive the effort and its results.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know who has said what. I think Mark said everything, Wink and I think I agreed with almost everything he said, but by now I don't remember, so let me just add my late-night thoughts. "You can leave if you want to, we're just rambling."

Trying to ignore or hide your musical influences is like trying to change the color of your skin. It most likely isn't going to happen, and if it does, the results will probably not be pleasing.

Embrace your musical heritage and grow and mature with it as you add your own experiences and truth to it. It's a forever process, and the influences can be endless too.

I know a ninety-nine year-old painter. His name is Milford Zornes. He has made his living doing paintings and drawings since he's been twelve. He paints because he wants to. It's his work, devotion and passion. He doesn't consider himself an artist, he considers himself a dirt farmer. And yes, he wants to sell his crop. That's how he's made his living for 78 years. But you know, every day he's in his studio trying to improve. He doesn't knock out painting after painting so he can sell them. That's not what motivates him. You could spend a week at his place and not see all the paintings and sketches that are stored in his studio and garage and in his spare bedrooms. They're all from trying to improve his craft, his work, his art, his love for painting.

I'm not a painter so I don't know all he goes through or the terminology, even though we've had long discussions on Art. I think he just tries and tries to put down on canvas whatever the truth of the subject is as purely as he can with the simplest and fewest amounts of strokes. He gets frustrated and wants to quit sometimes, but he's always there working working working. He's not looking for a style or trying to express himself. He will cringe at the very thought of both those terms. He'll say something like, "You express yourself walking across the room, not painting." or, "Don't ever worry about style. Just paint." I think he ultimately just wants to get himself out of the way. Did I mention that he's now almost completely blind? Yep, But he's still doing his thing and I think he is improving. His brush strokes are a wonder to watch. Carolyn has known him for over fifty years. She says his stuff is getting better and better.

By the way, I think Art and Artist can only be defined by both time and impact.

I listen to your guys' two albums and I don't make any comparisons to anyone. Never even thought of it, whether you wanted me to or not. Okay, maybe "Peace Baby" reminds me a little bit of the Partridge Family, but that's a good thing, isn't it?

I'm a picky, snobby SOB when it comes to music. I can't stand thoughtless, mindless, cheap-a$$, plastic, cookie-cutter music. I don't mind fun or thrilling or even downright nasty music if it's done with integrity (meaning no one is faking it), so don't go thinking I'm a prude.

I think you guys are doing great. And though I know some of these songs have been around for a number of years in various forms (especially on SV@SC), I think your stuff is fresh and exciting, clever, interesting and intelligent. Wow, intelligent music. Thank God! If you don't know the difference between a lake and an ocean...well, I don't really want to hear what you have to say. See, I told you I was a snob.

The lyrics are absolutely superb. Very poetic and thought provoking and not stupidly obvious, a great marriage between word and melody. My highest marks. Five stars. I was going to knock you down a half a star because I think you force hipness a little too much in some of the lines, but I'll let you slide because it's only a few words and it's only my take on it.

Love (and I mean love) the arrangements. I think that's my favorite thing. The music is just so damned interesting and unique. That's going to influence me and I'm glad of it. I need some inspiration and influence. So thanks for that.

Technically and mixing wise I think both these albums shine shine shine. I'm extremely envious over that.

I just love both these albums. Looking forward to more in the future, so get in there and start plowin' the dirt.

Who's this ED guy that keeps interrupting Mark's posts? Wink

Did I stay on topic? Eh, I don't care.

Much joy,

Dan Worley
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this bears repitition:

"By the way, I think Art and Artist can only be defined by both time and impact."

that's a very heavy statement. timing is everything.

i've BEEN slinging bass like no tomorrow, but haven't got the endless bread. i think what we ought to have is endless amount of too many checks and money orders coming into our mailboxes.

the drummer i play with (and my mentor, brother and best friend), Greg Bandy (google him, will you?) says it's all about the music, believe in the unseen (music is unseen). like the blind painter, he is deaf in one ear and 3/4 deaf in the other. plays his arse off and feels and hears. he is what i call the dalai lama of jazz; he only owns a drumset and a wardrobe.

it's all about the moment. and we are blessed.

we are living a spiritual existence through music, but, honestly i want more materiality. i want tons of bread. we're talented, aren't we? the cash register needs to ring by itself. mail box money. that's what we deserve.

Mark, you should be slapped for this negativity: 'But in today’s appallingly glutted and devolving/dissolving music scene no amount of cynicism, ambition, plotting, planning, and copying will put two middle-aged men anywhere near the charts. Unless we go completely behind the scenes and brilliantly “cast” songs for every hot performer we can think of, AND have financial angels and the exact, mad-luck connections to put us in a position to sell songs at that level.'

that's what we need to do. it can be done.

i'm just trying to figure out how we can all make too much money. maybe some of you have already made too much money, but i haven't. i've made enough of the material world to continue down my spiritual path, but i want more to give to my girlfriend. she can have it all. i want to deliver to her regular, unending stacks of show business cash.

now, if you think i am lost, you're probably correct.

i started this thread with the thought of ' let's be musical whores' and get paid. we deserve it. let's get it. time for a new subject: how do we get paid?
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anyhorizon
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Minister of Propaganda


Joined: 26 May 2007
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Location: The eye of the storm

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassnyerface wrote:
time for a new subject: how do we get paid?


Subscribe to a different lottery. Very Happy

reteP
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